Why Wenger changing to 4-3-3 is nonsense
I have heard a lot of pontification and opinion as to how Arsene has bought a lot of versatile young players in the last couple of seasons in the midfield/forward category and that he will gradually build a new system and change formation based on these new players.
The change to 4-4-3 to accommodate the 'new breed' maybe part of his development for the club.
I cannot believe that he is going to change his preferred formation of 4-4-2 for one minute.
He may play 4-3-3 if either he has no choice or he plays it against another system to counter it, but for someone who has predominantly played 4-4-2 throughout his career (certainly at Arsenal) I don't think it is likely.
Wenger has pretty much played a version of 4-4-2 since he came to the club and has had amazing success, helping to raise standards of football in the premiership and set footballing records which will stand for generations.
The way I see it is that Wenger is just preparing for the inevitable departure of Pires, Bergkamp and to a lesser extent Ljungberg & Gilberto.
I seriously think Wenger intends to have 4 strikers - Henry, Adebayor and Van Persie and possibly one of Lupoli or Bendtner. All the while he can assess and play Walcott and find out what his best position is. If he turns into a great striker (which I think is Wenger's plan) then he can be the fourth and will be nearing his prime as Henry departs, perfect!
It means that Reyes, Fabregas, Diaby, Hleb, Flamini and possibly Ljungberg and Walcott will be his first choice midfielders. I think his long term plan is to pair Fabregas and Diaby in the middle and have Reyes on the left with one of Hleb, Ljungberg or Walcott (depending on his development and preferred position) on the right.
No-one can predict how players are going to develop and how to help them fulfill their potential. I seriously doubt Wenger is gambling on players being able to fit into a system which is untried. I think he will see how they develop and possibly alter the 4-4-2 (like he did for Pires and Ljungberg, as they are not natural 'wide' players) but that will be Wenger's framework.
Admittedly Wenger doesn't have to stick to one formation (he played wingbacks at Monaco to accommodate players so maybe I'm wrong) and could chop and change from a 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3 however we saw what a lack of consistency did for Ranieri.
For someone who has had so much success, has such an idiosyncratic style and need to do things his own way I can't see Wenger adopting a 4-3-3 on a regular basis anytime soon.
It is an interesting subject and there is no right or wrong answer.. It would be good to hear some views of fellow Gooners on this one.. What do YOU think?
posted by JoeBoni @ 10:27 AM
16 comments
16 Comments:
Good topic! Personally...it might be justa "flexible" 4-3-3...i.e. the dreaded 4-5-1 that Wenger is working on.
We definitley need more width...so 4-3-3 is not really that greatin three rows. More likely it is plan B and flooding the centre with the Drogba "copy" Adebayour in the centre...hopefully I am wrong.
Interesting to see...and maybe the bolton game can tell us something...
4-4-3 ??
it would be good if we could get away with it...
Do you think that the new pitch might allow us to play with more width? The trouble is until now (Adebayor, Diaby and to a lesser extent Van Persie are making runs onto the box now) we haven't had forward players willing to get into the box and so we never need to get to the byline as if we do it's not as if we are going to swing a cross in that often. Hopefully that might change with the new personnel and pitch.
I would love to see the Arse adopt a 4-4-3 formation. This is because it could mean one of two things: (1) We would be playing with 12 men, or (2) lots of excitement as big Jens adopts 'monkey-rush' goalkeeping position somewhere in midfield.
Clearly, Wenger changing to 4-4-3 is indeed nonsense as your title suggests.
Oi Jobby, Anton's going nowhere son, except on the up and up with resurgent hammers
Flamini? are you serious?
Although we may have set up as 4-4-2 in recent years, given our movement and fluidity we've never realy played 4-4-2 - that's why teams couldn't handle us as they never knew where Booby, Freddie, Henry or Dennis would pop up next.
I agree with The Gun. We can't rely on Cesc and Diaby in the middle. Diaby is similar to Vieira in his style and all round energy, however he hasn't got the defensive discipline. It may come in time but will be a while yet. Cesc's game is all about creating not tackling. So if we are to set up with two in the middle, my feelings are it needs to be someone new with Cesc or Diaby, certainly not Gilberto - he won't ever go within spitting distance of a 50/50 tackle!!
I really think 4-3-3 could work - but not as a rigid 4-3-3. Hleb was outstanding at Stuttgart but he played as part of a midfield three giving him license to roam and create with others doing the 'nasty' work for him. Play him with Diaby and Cesc, Diaby more the holding player with the insurance of an extra body as he learns the role. Adebayor then plays as the target man with RVP and Thierry coming from deep, or Henry's case, the deep-left. Cole and Lauren/Gilbert can provide the width from deep knowing the extra body in the middle can cover if they push on. The whole system relies on fluidity and interchange of positions apart from 4 constants: your 2 centre backs, 1 centre midfielder just holding the middle and mopping up and your target man playing as just that, so staying up on the shoulders of the opposing centre half always in and around the box. It's a system I think the likes of Reyes, Walcott and Freddie could fit into nicely when called on.
Just my opinion! All feedback and critisicm welcome!!
I think you make a very good case. However I am sure Diaby and Cesc could operate as a 2, possibly with a more defensive style Ray Parlour type on the right. If you remember Vieira wasn't always so defensive and it was something he adapted his game to. I agree that you cannot have 2 all round midfielders as we have seen it doesn't owrk.. With Gerrard and Lampard. I think he will try and mould Diaby like he did Vieira, he looks confident on the ball and can drive forward when needed, but as you say he would need to stay disciplined. If we were to adopt a fluid 4-3-3 it could work for some of the attacking midfield/forward players such as Van Persie, Hleb, Walcott, Ljungberg, but surely we would be a little too reliant on Adebayor as the lone front man?
All would depend on whether Adebayor could play the role, lets face we've hardly seen anything of him yet! He needs to be physically strong and disciplined to hold his position. However I don't see him playing as a lone striker as he would always be joined by someone (or even 2 players) coming from deep, be it Henry, RVP, Hleb or even Cesc busting a lung. I certainly don't see it being anything like the dreaded 4-5-1 where a lone striker gets isolated and forgets what his team mates look like by the fianl whistle.
Yeah I agree, we can't judge Adebayor just yet although he would appear to be able to offer us something different. I agree that if there is an option for 2 or more to join his he would be less isolated and on paper it works but in a game situation it is easy for players to get bogged down with defensive work and it might not be as efficient as having another out and out striker.
Even if just one player linked up with Adebayor, it would still leave 4 in defensive roles. Given the attacking nature of the players we're talking about I don't think there would be an issue with them making the necessary runs. And of course it would all be built on work done on the training ground. Arsene would drill into them their roles, who is to make forward runs, who must stay when another goes, i.e. if Hleb bombs on Cesc must sit etc etc...
I agree with what you say Trev but why not just instill a bit of defensive discipline into Diaby and let Cesc be the creative player in the middle of the park?
Simply because I think we'd suffer while he learnt that discipline and learnt the role. It will take a good season, maybe two. Vieira had Petit next to him while he served his apprentorship. I'd want Diaby and Cesc in my 11 every week and I definitely think they are the future two, I just think that it would expose us too much if we went in with them in the middle now. Can't wait for a couple of years time though! We'll have a 21 and 20 year old in the middle, both bigger, both stronger, both knowing their roles both with 2-3 years experience in the Premiership. An awesome prospect!!
In terms of the playing system, I think some of you may be missing the point here. Wenger has rarely stuck to a rigid 4-4-2 system. The word 'fluid' has been mentioned a few times and I think that is the key word. Overmars and Pires never played a rigid 4-4-2 system. They may have lined up on the left of the midfield but they have played an advanced role to support the strikers - quite what you'd call this system i'm not sure as it's neither one nor the other. It's why we have been so successful under Wenger. Now that, arguably, we have been 'found out' by teams, maybe he is thinking of making the system even more fluid by getting the players used to switching from 4-5-1 through 4-4-2 to 4-3-3 depending on the opposition and the state of the game. That maybe over-analysing it a bit but you get the point.
Trev I agree, whatever formation we play we can always use the players in a 4-4-2 or 4-3-3 when they get a bit bigger, stronger and experienced so if they have to play a few different roles in the side now it will only mean they will be more all round players when they do command a place in the middle of a fluid 4-4-2 system.
It'll be interesting to see where Cesc eventually ends up. He's much more effective in the middle, and I wonder if he could become a deep midfielder like Pep Guardiola, Alsonso, or Pirlo, with Diaby up top, one winger, and a defensive midfielder on one of the flanks as gooner trev suggested. I agree that 442 should and probably will be the predominant system, but having the players familiar and comfortable with playing a 433/451 can only help. We became very predictable, which makes it that much easier for the opposing manager.
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